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Mr. O'Rourke?

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Yes, this is Mr. O'Rourke.

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Professor Ernest G. Gamin in Virginia, go ahead please.

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Hello, Professor Gamin.

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Yes, this is Mr. O'Rourke.

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Yes, Bob O'Rourke here.

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We are live on the air for the people in Tampa State Petersburg right now.

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We've had an occasion last week to talk to Mr. Horace Burns in Grotto's Virginia.

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Are you familiar with him?

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Yes, I know him.

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Alright, we were trying a follow-up on his sighting of an unidentified flying object,

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and we understood that you had done some work in that area on his report.

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Is that correct?

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I wonder if you'd be kind enough to fill us in on some of the work you've done

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or some of the things that you found?

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Yes, I'd be glad to answer any questions.

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First of all, I'd like to see. I don't hear you very well, sir.

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Alright, let me try to talk more into the phone. Is this a little better?

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That's a little better, yes.

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Alright, fine. Now, I wonder in your own words, probably since you've had a chance to...

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you've had a few days or whatever it has been now to work out your own ideas and your own investigations,

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I wonder if it would be possible for you to just give us a rough thumbnail sketch of what happened.

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We know his sighting. He told us what he saw.

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I wonder if you could tell us what you did after you were notified?

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Well, after I was notified the next day, I went to speak to him.

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Got his story on tape. I'm a sponsor of a college extracurricular club called the UFO Investigator.

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And this happened during vacation time. The students were scattered, so I went alone.

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And then the day after that, which was nine days after the sighting,

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I went to the fields where this happened, where he had seen the landing.

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And I found the place. He first of all described a field to me, which is about 33 miles from where I live, south of us.

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And I walked into the field. He had told me that it would be here.

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I would find that it had rested about a hundred yards from the highway,

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route 250 between St. and Waynesboro.

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So I walked in along the right, the wet fence, south of the highway,

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and turned on my Geiger counter. I stepped off about a hundred yards,

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and I walked probably 10 or 15 yards farther to be sure that I wouldn't just mint it.

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And then made a left turn and walked eastward across the field.

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And when I was about two thirds across the field, the needle on the dial started to rise.

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And I believed that I was in the area, which I was.

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And for about 35 or 47, possibly a little longer farther, eastward, there was quite evident radioactivity.

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And I trailed the probe stick on the ground, and directly I must have picked up,

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I found out later, some radioactive dust or something, and the needle shot off the dial.

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And I couldn't get it to return to zero or near zero because of background radiation.

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It couldn't return it farther to zero.

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But I couldn't get it back to zero even though I adjusted the meter, the Geiger counter,

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to the two lower ranges.

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Now this Geiger counter is of the nature.

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It's called a model 2.612 portable survey meter.

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And its ranges are 22 and 20 billi-reckets per hour,

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coinciding with 600, 6,000, and 60,000 count per minute full scale with the P-15 probe.

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In layman's language then, would that be sufficient, your Geiger counter sufficient to indicate a heavy man-made radioactivity?

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Yes, it would, I think.

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Now there are Geiger counters of course that get measured very much more.

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But for a portable, I think we had a very good one. We have it just below to the college.

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Was there a, or did you register any background radiation in the area to work with to begin with?

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In other words, was there an established background radiation factor in the area?

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Yes, it was. It was to the actual landing area of course.

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The background radiation of about one and a half milliretics per hour.

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And then you adjusted that off of the dial?

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No, I did not.

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You just take that into consideration?

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I just took that into consideration.

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I see.

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Then as I was walking, suddenly as I said, the needle shot off the dial and I couldn't make it return.

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And I walked far off the area and finally it occurred to me that I might have some dust, radioactive dust, lodging on the tube.

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So I unscrewed the cap and wiped off the tube. I was far off the area.

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And immediately then it returned to zero plus the background radiation, the needle.

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Well then I went back into the area again.

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And the same thing happened the second time.

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Actually, this time I had picked up a little blade of grass that lodged under the protecting rib over the tube, you know?

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Yes.

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And when I removed the blade and had walked off the area, then the counter against the neighbor went back towards zero.

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Now this was it.

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When I stuck the blade under it again, it went up again.

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In other words, when the blade again touched the tube, then again the needle rose and it went off the dial.

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Now was there any analysis made of this blade of grass back at the college or had the radiation dissipated by that time?

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Well, I'm sorry to say that about that time my interest was diverted to something else and I lost that blade of grass.

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I see.

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I dropped.

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And it happened that two new pond research engineers, Mr. Cook and Mr. Fonk, came into the field.

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I was very glad to have them there because they were witnesses to the fact that it was very highly radioactive.

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I see.

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Then you had three of you then to determine the fact that there was a high level of radioactivity in a given area in the field.

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That's right.

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Did this correspond, this area in which you found the radioactivity, did this correspond favorably to the direction and location given you by Horace Burns?

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Yes, the current pilot, except you see that I didn't have an exact location told me by Mr. Burns.

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I see.

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And I discovered it with the Geiger counter, the exact location.

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And then several days, I mean several weeks later, when the Air Force gentlemen were there and the whole group of it, six of us, walked into the field together.

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Mr. Burns took us exactly to the spot that I had found with the Geiger counter.

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The first time he and I had been at the same field at the same time.

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Together, I see.

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What was your radiation level when the Air Force survey team entered?

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Well, you see, they were not able to find anything with their counter.

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Just your regular background?

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Just regular background.

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That you would normally have in any given area?

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Yes, except that, now this is curious, three different times.

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Their needles started to rise.

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And then the Air Force managed charge.

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They quickly screwed something, adjusted something on his dial on his counter.

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And the needle returned to zero again.

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And then he said, you see, there's no radiation here.

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Did you have your counter with you at that time?

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No, unfortunately I did not.

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And you had not gone back then?

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We expected that they would come with a great deal of equipment.

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I see.

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And we're surprised that they just came with a small hand, the Geiger counter.

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And I can't help feeling that it was the right sort of machine to use for the purpose

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because it was the sense of nature one had to point right at the place where there was radiation.

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From the information you have now at hand, what is your feeling in regards to the observation

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by Mr. Burns and your observation of the area in regards to an incident happening on December the 20th there?

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Well, I'm sure that Mr. Burns told a story that was just exactly like he thought, like he described it.

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And I have all confidence in his account.

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The more so since his car was stopped, you know, by the proximity of the UFO.

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And the fact that I found the place of Geiger counter, it found it very radioactive.

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And you are an object?

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He always tells the same story.

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You then are of the opinion, if I may put words in your mouth to correct me, yes or no,

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you are of the opinion that there was a highly advanced object that did land in that area

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that had nuclear type of propulsion?

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Yes, I am very much of that opinion.

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I see.

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All right, well, I thank you very much.

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Is there anything else you can add to the situation in Virginia?

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Is this the only sighting that's been recently there?

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No, there has been a great many.

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Now there could, in fact, I know I had reports of other sightings that people had before that.

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But until this one came to the fore, they didn't know to whom to report.

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In fact, many people just didn't report.

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I see.

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But now there has been quite a number of sightings in the area since then.

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I'd say at least that is going as far east as Richmond, 140, 50 miles.

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I believe that there might have been as many as 2,000 sightings since then.

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I see.

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Professor Gaiman, I wonder if I may ask you, since everybody's listening in now,

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as to your qualifications and your academic standings?

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I am a PhD and a professor of German at East Germanite College, Harrisburg, Virginia.

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I see, sir.

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Well, and I understand that Mr. Burns had been a civil engineer.

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That's right.

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And he gave a very clear description.

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So we have two rather good reports then.

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And I thank you very much for being with us and letting us interview you live on the radio here at WPI in St. Petersburg.

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You're very welcome.

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Best wishes to you and a lot of sunshine to you, which we have down here right now.

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All right.

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Thank you, sir.

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All right.

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Bye-bye.

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That was Professor Gaiman of the Eastern Mennonite College in Harrisburg, Virginia,

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who did a rather extensive search of the area where we had a report by Mr. Burns,

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if you recall, Horace Burns of Grothos, Virginia.

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This is Major Keelow.

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Yes.

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This is Bob Rook, WPIN Radio in St. Petersburg, Florida.

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I'm live on the air right now.

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The people out there listening, I've already told them I was calling you to hand your capacity in nightcap.

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How are you this morning, sir?

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Fine.

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Fine.

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Thank you for calling, Mr. Rook.

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Is your family well?

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Yes.

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Yes, fine.

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I'm surprised to catch you there.

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I understand that you've been pretty busy with lecture series around the country.

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Yes, and some broadcast and so on.

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It's been a big outbreak of sightings, as you probably know.

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I wanted to ask you about those most recent sightings now, if you could give us a little idea on them,

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and then we'll go a little bit further into nightcap.

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Well, one important sighting, it took place down at the Space Agency base at Wallops Island in Virginia,

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where a strange object was seen flying over the area at very high speed.

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Now, this was, the principal witness in this case was Mr. Dempsey Bruton,

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who was the chief of satellite tracking at this base.

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He saw this object and checked the time with another witness,

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and they computed the speed at about 8,000 miles an hour.

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This also brought out an earlier sighting that had taken place in the area in October,

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where an object had been seen making a very sharp right angle turn at several thousand miles an hour.

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Something is completely impossible for any type of missile or jet that we have.

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That's one case, isn't it?

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And it, the, uh...

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Now, excuse me, was this at Wallops Island area?

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Yes.

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This is where they have all of the sophisticated equipment to do this type of tracking.

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That's right. It's a very up-to-date Space Agency station.

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That's where they release the echo, balloons, and so on.

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Was this a visual sighting as well as an electronic sighting?

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The visual sighting, yes, by Mr. Bruton and several other witnesses in the area.

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And was it tracked electronically?

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No, it was not tracked electronically. It came in so fast.

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I see.

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Before they had time, usually those things have to be set up.

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Before they had time to get aligned on it, where it was going.

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Right.

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Uh-huh.

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However, there was another one that was tracked by radar Navy operators at Patuxent, Maryland.

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That's the big Navy test center.

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Uh-huh.

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They tracked two UFOs maneuvering some vistas from the station.

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One of these was seen to make a 160-degree turn while it was traveling almost 5,000 miles an hour.

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And this again proves something completely beyond our personal knowledge.

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That's a pretty fast turn.

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In another case, the captain of an electric four-engine transport reported to us,

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and he was held his name, but he's a veteran.

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He's been flying 25 years.

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He was making an approach to the Washington area.

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A huge object came straight toward them, and he thought they were going to collide.

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He was just about to bank very hastily away when the object reversed course and disappeared.

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And he estimated its speed of departure and the realm of 2,000 to 3,000 miles an hour.

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Could he estimate his closing speed to get an estimate on the craft speed coming toward him?

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Well, he was coming in at 230.

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He had followed down for his final approach.

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And this was the object came in and matched his speed for a few moments and turned straight toward him.

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And as I say, it frightened everybody in the cockpit.

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They could follow the flight engineer.

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And then just as the collision seemed almost inevitable,

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the thing reversed and disappeared at an absolutely incredible speed.

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Now, this aircraft was turning base leg on an approach at the time of the sighting?

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I wasn't on this base leg. It was coming in over Riverdale.

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And I have all that report filed here, but I don't have all the details.

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I see.

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All I know is he was at 6,000 feet.

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He had been holding and he was coming in to begin his procedure when this object appeared.

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I see.

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And then there was another case where a government official and I can't identify him any further than that

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because his superior told him not to reveal the name of the agency or his name.

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But this is confirmed.

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He was on official duty in the northwest part of the United States.

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And he did about 30 to 40 feet in diameter, swooped down right in front of his car,

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almost filled the road between the telegraph poles on both sides.

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He came down straight at him and then shot up over the top and hovered.

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He jumped out of the car and looked and he hovered above his car for about a minute or two.

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And then it tilted up and took off at speed.

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He said several times that the fastest jet speed.

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Now, on all of these normal sightings, now I heard you mention they're tilted up.

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Have all of these indicated some incline of the vehicle to propel it?

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In other words, rather than staying level, they've all inclined to some extent to take off?

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Well, not necessarily, but quite often you will, where these discs are seen,

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there will be a report of them tilting up for a very steep climb,

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although some of them have been seen to rise almost vertically without tilting.

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It is now fairly well certain that these things operate with a revolutionary type of propulsion

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involving an artificial gravity field.

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I mean, they simply could not maneuver in our atmosphere several thousand miles an hour

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if they were ordinary vehicles, because they would burn up from friction

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and they would cause sonic boom that would be heard all over the country.

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Right, I can see that.

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Now, you say this is a rash of new sightings.

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Now, have these normally been in bunches type of thing?

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Your sightings maybe dribble for a while and then all of a sudden you'll have quite a few

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and then they'll slack off a bit?

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Well, there are always sightings, even in the periods that you might call a lull.

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There are some sightings come in and you're never sure whether it's a real lull

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because the military now keeps a very tight lid on this, so they try to,

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occasionally as this Navy case, something leaks out,

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but the Air Force has a regulation, Air Force Regulation 200-2,

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which prohibits anyone in the Air Force from revealing these things

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and discussing them with a public or the press without permission and a special direction to do it.

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So, there are lots of sightings that we know go on, for instance, jet chases.

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The jets, whenever one of these things appears or is picked up on radar,

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it's mandatory that Air Force defense jets immediately take off

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and try to identify the thing and bring it down.

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But, that's so far as we know, no jet has ever been able to bring down one of these objects.

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They're simply too fast and they cannot maneuver anything that we have.

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Do I understand that there has been some jets that have caught up to these though

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and that we've not heard of these jets again?

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Well, yes, it was one case for an F-89, a two-man jet pilot and radar officer,

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chased one of these objects for about 18 minutes.

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They swung out from the suit of the officer over Lake Superior,

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and they were being watched by ground radar, Air Force ground radar.

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The radar men saw this object and the jet, the F-89, merged on their scope.

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No Mayday call from the plane and there was no answer when they called.

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It may have been 48 hours of our Air Force and the Canadian Air Force

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and some surface vessels searched a very wide area, about 100 miles radius.

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And nothing, and no one was flicked, not a trace.

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Now, Major Keelow, I understand that you are the chairman.

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You're the director.

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I'm the director of NICAP, which would be National Investigation Committee for Aerial Phenomena.

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Is that basically it?

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Now, what is NICAP's basic purpose?

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Could we condense it pretty quick? I know there's a lot to it,

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but I wonder if you could give me a condensed answer.

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It has been carrying on the investigation for eight years.

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We have military aviation space experts and all the other types of experts we need to evaluate cases.

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We get all the information we can, verify or discard a report that is evaluated by our experts

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and we announce a conclusion if we can, and we also are trying to break what we consider dangerous secrecy.

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And this is done through our board of directors and scientific and technical advisors.

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And incidentally, if anyone has any report which has not been made public and we wish to give it to us,

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openly or confidentially, or they want any other information,

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we should have it right to us at NICAP, 1536 Connecticut Avenue in Washington.

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But we've had some very powerful cases sent to us by simply asking for them in that way.

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I see. Now, did I understand that you're pushing for open investigation of the UFOs,

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or is it opening of the files for information? That's better to see.

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We need to open the Air Force files. We have duplicates of hundreds of Air Force cases that we know exactly what they have.

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What we want to do is to have the secrecy end at the process and the danger of accidental war.

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Several times the Strategic Air Command has launched bombers when they made our people pick up UFOs

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and thought they might be a secret Soviet attack.

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Of course, they recall the bombers. They found out the error, but this could lead to accidental war.

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And then there's danger on the airlines. Over 50 passengers have been injured in at least three different cases

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where policies are dived under one of these objects, or zoomed to avoid a collision when the object came too close to them.

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So it's time for the thing to be out in the open and stop ridiculing it and try to tell people what to expect

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and particularly pilots what to be prepared for.

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Now, can you give me your impression of UFOs? In other words, have you come up with a sound idea or basic premise as to what these visual sightings are?

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Yes, we parallel the Air Force top secret conclusion, which we know about because one of the former officials on the project is one of our board of governors.

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We believe we have concluded after examining several thousand reports, including Air Force reports, that these objects, the majority of them are disk shaped devices,

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apparently metallic, with a thickness at the center about one-tenth of their diameter, that they are capable of revolutionary speeds and maneuvers.

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Obviously, so superior to anything that we are even dreaming about, that they must come from some more advanced civilization.

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We don't know where. They may be, and probably are, operating from a base on some planet in our galaxy, or possibly from the other side of the moon.

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That's been suggested by a group of scientists.

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Actually, so then you give these credences to being objects, material objects being operated by an intelligent and also of not being within this sphere here.

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That's right. Exactly what the Air Force concluded in this top secret estimate that they drew up.

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Now, I have one question. Did you get a report on the one that was seen in Grover's, Virginia, by the... I think his name was Mr. Burns,

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and investigated by Dr. Gaiman of the Mennonite University?

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Yes, we've looked into that very carefully. The important part of that is that Professor Gaiman checked the ground with a Geiger cutter,

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several days after it, and found it highly radioactive. Then this was confirmed by an engineer in the area, connected with the DuPont organization,

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and he said it was very hot, very radioactive. Now, the Air Force came in about three weeks later, but that time the radioactivity had died,

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and they said that there was no trace of it. But because of this confirmation of the Geiger cutter, we are not discounting this report,

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even though it is a very astounding one of the huge objects putting down there about 200 yards from the road.

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I only have one thing on this. I spoke to Dr. Gaiman and did interview him. Now, I have some thoughts and retrospect on this.

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One of the things that you can help me on it, one is, was Dr. Gaiman actually qualified to run the Geiger counter to determine the radioactivity in the area?

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Now, I based this on one thing. Now, he said he pegged his needle on that Geiger counter, and he found it was radioactive dust on the lens,

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and later he pegged it again as soon as he was in the area. He had a blade of grass in there.

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He said he did not take any samples back for analysis, and if it was so hot to peg that Geiger counter, would there not be some sort of radiation burns to Dr. Gaiman,

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who spent over 15 minutes in the hot area? In other words, if he had pegged the Geiger counter, would that not have been a sufficient dose of radiation to cause him physical discomfort,

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and should there not have been analysis of the area to determine alpha and beta emitters?

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Well, that's one of the things that we still have open. Some of our experts on radiation are looking into that angle now.

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I don't know that he remained at the exact spot. He tripped all over the field, and then he'd come back to this spot,

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and he'd go again and see if he could find any other places with hot. So, I don't know how long he was actually on the standing in that hot area.

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Uh-huh.

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Nor this engineer. That's one thing we're going to ask. But the confirmation by this engineer who came in independently,

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he heard that this was being checked, and he came in and checked it, and he confirmed a very high count.

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But as I say, we haven't closed it. We haven't accepted it, but we also have not rejected it.

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Well, I thank you very much for your information on there. We have quite a few NiCAP members down here that are listening in,

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and I'm sure they thoroughly enjoyed your speech. Best of luck to you. If there's anything that comes up of significance,

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I would appreciate it any time to give me a call, and we'd be happy to inform our people down here.

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Thank you very much, Mr. Roche.

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Thank you, Major Keyhorn. Goodbye for now.

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Goodbye.

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Very nice gentleman who gave us probably a few more facts than we've had before.

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Major Keyhorn retired the U.S. Marine Corps, who is currently in charge of NiCAP, the National Investigative Committee for Aerial Phenomena,

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and he stated his case as to what he believes and to what they're trying to accomplish.

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Of course, we take no stand either way. I'm just interested as an average citizen like you.